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Pedro Peru




Joined: 19 Apr 2010
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Location: Leeds

PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KingstonGraham wrote:
Pedro Peru wrote:
hammerer wrote:
KingstonGraham wrote:
If they were dirty to the core, those medical records wouldn't have gone missing. They would have been fake, but they would have existed.


thats my take on this whole thing. Postal had dotted their i's and crossed their fake T's on everything and when they didnt they paid and bullied to keep it quiet. The fact this is all so amateur leads me to believe they are "clean" (as in havent stepped over the legal line) but incompetent.

Does that "we're a bit amateur" line tally with their "look at our bus", "look at our mattresses", "other teams have their chimps running things", etc? Having it both ways is just illogical to me.


Bear in mind that they aren't claiming that the medical records didn't exist, but that they weren't backed up.

It still smells really odd when combined with the accidental testosterone delivery. (I mean who among us hasn't had one of those?) But it doesn't feel like a team wide conspiracy.

I ordered a pair of goggles from wiggle and instead of haribo I got a tube of Testosterone HRT gel.
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user134098




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:

Armstrong was totally different. He'd been racing on the circuit (in the US) since he was a kid, and was a World Champion. And whilst he clearly cheated as he's admitted, I still think the stark change in his ability to climb was a result of the cancer. As he said himself, he went into hospital as a muscular one day specialist (who was already doping) and had won a rainbow jersey. He came out having lost all his muscle mass, and despite regaining his fitness and actually most of his power, he could never regain the muscle. That was what enabled him to suddenly climb and become a GC contender. Sure he cheated, but if it hadnt been for the cancer, I think he would be a minor blip on the radar of Classics specialists (who cheated).

This is a myth which he propagated in his own books - he was actually heavier post cancer treatment.

Nov 1992 78.9
Jan 1993 76.5
Sept 1993 75.1
Aug 1997 79.5
Nov 1999 79.7

http://jap.physiology.org/content/98/6/2191.figures-only
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/11/sports/othersports/11cycling.html
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stenard




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ianmcl wrote:
stenard wrote:

Armstrong was totally different. He'd been racing on the circuit (in the US) since he was a kid, and was a World Champion. And whilst he clearly cheated as he's admitted, I still think the stark change in his ability to climb was a result of the cancer. As he said himself, he went into hospital as a muscular one day specialist (who was already doping) and had won a rainbow jersey. He came out having lost all his muscle mass, and despite regaining his fitness and actually most of his power, he could never regain the muscle. That was what enabled him to suddenly climb and become a GC contender. Sure he cheated, but if it hadnt been for the cancer, I think he would be a minor blip on the radar of Classics specialists (who cheated).

This is a myth which he propagated in his own books - he was actually heavier post cancer treatment.

Nov 1992 78.9
Jan 1993 76.5
Sept 1993 75.1
Aug 1997 79.5
Nov 1999 79.7

http://jap.physiology.org/content/98/6/2191.figures-only
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/11/sports/othersports/11cycling.html

Interesting. I hadnt actually looked at the numbers, I'd just accepted the fact informally as from images, he definitely seemed to adopt the more gaunt, climbers physique over time, especially in his face and arms. Thanks for sharing the numbers though. You are correct he portrays what I described in his books.

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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's heavy for a professional triathlete his height (1.77m), let alone a Tour winner. I'm back under 75kg again, starting to shed the winter waist-coat.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
That's heavy for a professional triathlete his height (1.77m), let alone a Tour winner. I'm back under 75kg again, starting to shed the winter waist-coat.


he was a quad dominant cyclist as a teenager...it took a little while to develop enough running pace to stay with the top triathletes, but he was certainly an aggressive and psychologically strong racer....of course, he could have been on the juice back then too
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Pedro Peru




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The coach at US cycling was sued in civil court for juicing juniors. Lance was part of that group so it is certainly possible if not likely that he was on it.
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/03/interview-paul-kimmage-team-skys-charade-exposed/

Kimmage speaks on the topic.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:


i think you may need another couple of pints whilst you wait this one out Very Happy
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An older article on Sky not joining the MPCC. Whether or not it was a premeditated move by Sky could be debated.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/now-we-understand-why-team-sky-never-joined-says-mpcc-doctor/
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/03/interview-paul-kimmage-team-skys-charade-exposed/

Kimmage speaks on the topic.


Kimmage falling out with Walsh too...
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to sound like an apologist, I still have an open mind on this whole issue. My reservations about this piece

Kimmage has been out the limelight a while and what he says is just to get him exposure.

He mentions Wiggins walking his bike uphill in the Giro in 2008. this is 2008 where he weighed some 10kg + more than in his road cycling / GC focus because he was a track specialist and was 2 months or so out of Beijing just trying to build his last bit of endurance. not a great example to use.

One stage in 2006 he finished 12mins down on Landis. No mention again of Brad being a track cyclist, just trying to get around in the laughing group and not racing and also Landis being juiced

something changed in 2009. Yes he finished on the track and spent a season focussing on weight loss and becoming a road cyclist.

Brad was very outspoken about AD in 2007 but mellowed. Really did he, is this the same Brad that called people w@nkers in 2012 under yet more accusations

He mentions he got an email accusing Brad in 2012 , but he knew it was fake....but then he realised after Putin hacked the databases that the email just had the wrong date. Putting 2+2 and getting 5 there to make a story

I've tried to contact this Dr for 5 months but he wont pick up the phone....Are you surprised Kimmage with your track record.

and then just to finish he gets personal saying there are no nice guys in Sky.

Kimmage is just a boring failed ex doper himself, he cheated and was still no good.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
I don't want to sound like an apologist, I still have an open mind on this whole issue.

.


Slam..... Wink
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SGreg




Joined: 30 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
I don't want to sound like an apologist, I still have an open mind on this whole issue.




Hmmmm Unfortunately you do!

I get where you are coming from, I appreciate you don't want to fall into the Lance apologist trap so many did in years past however, reading your post certainly reads like posts of old defending the great one!

Like those posts, yours could easily be accurate, and maybe that does explain all of Bradleys improvements


Or maybe he just doped....


Like Lance time will tell,

I'm still leaning, gently, towards the cleaner side....
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So who is the target at the moment. Is it Brad only, or is it Team Sky who run a sophisticated doping program. In which case why aren't the press targeting Gee. A successful track cyclist who is now all of a sudden a competitive GC rider after not doing very well in GC Wink Why has Froome, that guy with TUE's also, and dominating every big race he does not being targeted after these revelations. In fact both these very successful road riders have been backed by the press saying they have been tarnished by Sky.

Its one big mess for sure, but I just think the press are muddying everything for a headline and are undermining the work UKAD are doing. Granted things don't look good on the surface but the stories that are printed are rehashed nonsense in many cases. How many times is the story about a mysterious package going to be reprinted with a slightly different tone Wink

As for my view, I hope Brad competed without crossing that line, if it turns out the other way I'll not shed a tear. Its cycling, nothing surprises me...well except maybe if Cav tested +ve! I'll be gutted that my 7 year old son that rides at Herne Hill and wants to be like Brad will start to believe that to win you have to take "super juice". Maybe Ethan Hayter will be a senior champion by then and give him a new HHV "hero" Wink
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