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Tri'ing Swimmer




Joined: 15 Nov 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Froome and Thomas are being left alone by the press, but doesn't mean people aren't questioning it. I've struggled to believe in Sky for the last few years, beyond just BW.
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SGreg




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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
Why has Froome, that guy with TUE's also, and dominating every big race he does not being targeted after these revelations.



TBF Froome's Tue's were released well before Fancy bears released them. There really is nothing to hide there.

Not saying Froome IS clean, but its not corrupt Tue's that will be his downfall...
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
I hope Brad competed without crossing that line


Even based on what we know right now, he may well have, without water-tight medical evidence that he needed those corticosteroid shots.
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hammerer




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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
hammerer wrote:
I hope Brad competed without crossing that line


Even based on what we know right now, he may well have, without water-tight medical evidence that he needed those corticosteroid shots.


They convinced the doctors that allowed the TUE it was the only option so they must have had some evidence. Its really not that easy to get a TUE. You don't just self certificate one like Lance did Wink
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BigFoz




Joined: 25 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't want to derail this thread discussing Froome, that can wait to the annual TdF thread in July, Wink his results were v good but not knock it out the park LeMond good. (2007 results: VO2 max 80ml/kg, FTP 420W).


His main improvement seems to have come post his successful Bilharzia diagnosis and treatment. Nasty stuff Bilharzia. Symptoms include muscle aches and fatigue.

Be nice if they were dope free, but I'm no holding my breath.

In the case of Mr Cope, how do you take a package with unknown content onto a plane or even just over a national border? That beggars belief. He must have known even if only to be able to say what it was at controls. How stupid would you have to be to take a package of drugs across a border without knowing exactly what it was. That for me is the least believable part of this whole furore.
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PhilleusPhogg




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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting, tbh I am reserved to speculate, since if there is a wide-scale doping programme (over and above the line-pushing we have seen so far) given enough time, someone key to the whole thing will spill the beans, so the meme earlier about getting a beer and waiting is quite correct ... watch and enjoy, but keep an open mind and don't invest too much emotionally in your cycling heroes ....

BUT I can't resist speculating a little Smile Froome's interesting, in so much as his sudden emergence in 2011 has been a major bone of contention with many, and rightly so because it's fine to question things. What's interesting is that if he was juiced then, presumably he must be still on it now, given he's been pretty dominant over a sustained period of time now. So either he's doing 'it' on his own and still doing it, Sky are still doing 'it', or there is no 'it' and he fixed his health issues and is just the best and clean.

If 'it' turns out to be something more than line-pushing (e.g. mechanical, blood or some other doping) they're doing a bang-up job of keeping ahead of the testing curve (assuming no covered up failures of course!) and ahead of the competition.

So as time goes on, and if Froome wins a few more Grand Tours, then the evidence points to either he's pretty much clean, or there's a larger continuing form of cheating that will surely come out in the future.

Pseudo-science aside, certainly the trend in the climbing times of recent tours shows they're not slowing down since 2011-12, maybe getting slightly faster again (W/Kg -wise). so it's presumably not the case that Froome was cheating before, and is clean now. I think I can safely draw that conclusion.
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PhilleusPhogg




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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PhilleusPhogg wrote:
Very interesting, tbh I am reserved to speculate, since if there is a wide-scale doping programme (over and above the line-pushing we have seen so far) given enough time, someone key to the whole thing will spill the beans, so the meme earlier about getting a beer and waiting is quite correct ... watch and enjoy, but keep an open mind and don't invest too much emotionally in your cycling heroes ....

BUT I can't resist speculating a little Smile Froome's interesting, in so much as his sudden emergence in 2011 has been a major bone of contention with many, and rightly so because it's fine to question things. What's interesting is that if he was juiced then, presumably he must be still on it now, given he's been pretty dominant over a sustained period of time now. So either he's doing 'it' on his own and still doing it, Sky are still doing 'it', or there is no 'it' and he fixed his health issues and is just the best and clean.

If 'it' turns out to be something more than line-pushing (e.g. mechanical, blood or some other doping) they're doing a bang-up job of keeping ahead of the testing curve (assuming no covered up failures of course!) and ahead of the competition.

So as time goes on, and if Froome wins a few more Grand Tours, then the evidence points to either he's pretty much clean, or there's a larger continuing form of cheating that will surely come out in the future.

Pseudo-science aside, certainly the trend in the climbing times of recent tours shows they're not slowing down since 2011-12, maybe getting slightly faster again (W/Kg -wise). so it's presumably not the case that Froome was cheating before, and is clean now. I think I can safely draw that conclusion.


My current position FWIW has gone from believing in the whole thing, to being sceptical, but not closed off either way.

For sure, Sky have done a terrible job of managing this whole thing, which has made me very suspicious of things, and it's clear I think that some ethical boundaries were crossed at least. However, Froome's done pretty much everything I'd have expected a clean rider to do in terms of confronting the question when he's asked, and at least seeming to be trying to engage the doubters, which proves nothing obviously, but is a bit different to the omerta of the previous generation.

I thought at the time his "this is one jersey that will stand the test of time" speech was a great line, since my defence would always be (if I was clean) "I can't do much now to convince you, but we all know if I am cheating, you'll find out down the line".
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Buzz_




Joined: 19 May 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me it seems Sky have decided to push the boundaries and exploit any loopholes, and if that is the case and they haven't broken any rules then fair enough. But when you operate on the line, it is going to be very easy to step over, either because people working in that team culture now assume because taking xyz is OK, and abc is the same so no harm. Or I took xyz and it was OK because I had a TUE, so I took it again, but forgot to get the TUE. I can see a rider being told, it's all OK, we've got permission, and the team failing to get permission (Yates) or I can see a team thinking well we got permission before, won't bother asking this time, or "everyone's doing it", we have to do this to compete.

When you make the decision to operate on the line, the chances of stepping over and getting burned are high. And that is where I think they are right now. They can't stick their hand up and say "honest mistake, sorry, won't happen again", so they are trying to say "nothing to see here".

--
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzz_ wrote:
To me it seems Sky have decided to push the boundaries and exploit any loopholes, and if that is the case and they haven't broken any rules then fair enough. But when you operate on the line, it is going to be very easy to step over, either because people working in that team culture now assume because taking xyz is OK, and abc is the same so no harm. Or I took xyz and it was OK because I had a TUE, so I took it again, but forgot to get the TUE. I can see a rider being told, it's all OK, we've got permission, and the team failing to get permission (Yates) or I can see a team thinking well we got permission before, won't bother asking this time, or "everyone's doing it", we have to do this to compete.

When you make the decision to operate on the line, the chances of stepping over and getting burned are high. And that is where I think they are right now. They can't stick their hand up and say "honest mistake, sorry, won't happen again", so they are trying to say "nothing to see here".

--

What Brailsford wants you to believe is that he is keen to check that the star rider hqs got his fave pillow but is not interested i what the doctors are up to...
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TransitionTed




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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

until any rider gets popped, good luck with the speculation
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TransitionTed wrote:
until any rider gets popped, good luck with the speculation


mismanagement: misuse of funds, lack of oversight, lack of prioritisation an abundance of stupidity....all guilty as charged...
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Roscoemck




Joined: 10 Aug 2016
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever's going on, it's working!

Never a force in the classics, Strade Bianche and Milan San Remo both now in the bag.

Impressive.
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do times/speeds & performances compare for the Sky years versus the US Postal/Telekom years? Sports science and supplements basically haven't changed over that time.

That's your bellwether.
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TransitionTed




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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
TransitionTed wrote:
until any rider gets popped, good luck with the speculation


mismanagement: misuse of funds, lack of oversight, lack of prioritisation an abundance of stupidity....all guilty as charged...

But as regards riders being supercharged, then you'll have to wait around. Because, let's face it, that's all most people care about. The other stuff is just background noise.
Anyway, it was business as usual today at Milan, and well raced too. That's 2 in 2 weeks for the polish boy
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TransitionTed wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
TransitionTed wrote:
until any rider gets popped, good luck with the speculation


mismanagement: misuse of funds, lack of oversight, lack of prioritisation an abundance of stupidity....all guilty as charged...

But as regards riders being supercharged, then you'll have to wait around. Because, let's face it, that's all most people care about. The other stuff is just background noise.
Anyway, it was business as usual today at Milan, and well raced too. That's 2 in 2 weeks for the polish boy


thankfully i am not most people and i care about how money is spent in my name.....either Brailsford is honest but stupid or he is dishonest...
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