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Treadmills again
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tin pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2525
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:36 pm    Post subject: Treadmills again Reply with quote

I know form has been a concern on tritalk in the past, but that aside.

Is there a benefit to treadmills similar to TrainerRoad in that you can hit exactly the desired paces for intervals, or steady runs?

Iím training outside in hilly Tunbridge Wells and itís hard to follow a training plan session when the landscape is determining the gradient.

Also, the Zwift for running sounds like it could be good. Gamification might encourage myself and my son who is refusing to run outside due to shyness, which means his severs disease isnít going anywhere.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a good treadmill you can get away with poor form and on most treadmills if form improves at greater velocity then you'll be fine with fast reps but not recovery intervals.

I would guess that fast team games would be better for severs than running on a treadmill.
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Mungo




Joined: 29 Sep 2016
Posts: 377
Location: Preston

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have run outside twice this year.
My treadmill pace at 1% is virtually identical to a flat ish 21k for the same heartbeat.
5 k seems faster on the mill by 20-30 seconds.

Sunday was 8 miles outside at 155 bpm which gave 6:50 ish miles.
Slightly faster than a similar run on the mill ten days earlier.

As it gets warmer and less .... Horrible English weather I run outside more.

It doesn't seem to hamper my running mind you I've been using them for 35 years.

They are handy for brick sessions with a watt or static bike.

Much easier to do intervals with.

Lots of views either way.
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twhat




Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 1215
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you hit exactly the right paces for intervals (reps)? I have found wild variance in calibration from one machine to another in the past. I guess if you are only ever on the same machine then this doesnt matter for tracking progress... but even then the machines calibration probably changes as it ages.
I cant comment on form (EJC is your man) but other factors to consider are obviously temperature/lack of wind cooling and resistance.
I appreciate what you say about your son's shyness but i honestly think its worth trying to encourage him (and you) to get out and use those hills to your benefit. Maybe find some quiet woods/ go easrly morning ? Dont look at your pace, dont compare previous performance, just try and get out there and enjoy it. Testing only needs to be done every few weeks... constantly worrying about run times/pace/performance may work for some but in my experience it just leads to frustration and demotivation, and possibly injury. You live in a lovely part of the world... why run on a treadmill ????

edit... Also.. for 'gamification' and progress monitoring...why not Parkrun ? Obviously this causes shyness issues, but, and this probably deserves a 'mind your own business' riposte, but encouraging him to run against others hiding behind an avatar in a virtual world isnt going to help in the long run. I'll apologise now for that...
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should edit my post really....treadmills are a greater risk to those with less ingrained form. So if your form is poor, but consistent, unless there are fundamental issues exacerbated by the treadmill, then runners should be ok.

I have a big issue with Park Run - as much as they have been successful in encouraging people to run. They enhance the culture of running too far too soon....
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tin pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2525
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iíll be doing park run this weekend for the first time in yonks. I never attend regularly - at the moment all my runs in plan are half mara pace, one with VO2 max intervals. I like to do 10k or 5k pace occasionally.

I suppose I can find a park for intervals, maybe Iíll try the remote location for my son. He specifically asked for a treadmill, so itís a big part of the motive, but Iím also intrigued by managing pace specifically.

No Zwift runners yet?
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Iron Ď17 16h11, '16 14h30
Half Iron Ď18 DNF, '17 7h39, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
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twhat




Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 1215
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
Iíll be doing park run this weekend for the first time in yonks. I never attend regularly - at the moment all my runs in plan are half mara pace, one with VO2 max intervals. I like to do 10k or 5k pace occasionally.

I suppose I can find a park for intervals, maybe Iíll try the remote location for my son. He specifically asked for a treadmill, so itís a big part of the motive, but Iím also intrigued by managing pace specifically.

No Zwift runners yet?


I run a fair bit.. average 40 miles a week in 2018. Running 1/2 marathon pace is hard. Running 10k pace is really hard. Running 5k pace exceptionally hard. In a 40 mile week... i reckon less than 5 miles would be at HMP or quicker. I am in marathon training to be fair so MP (also pretty hard) takes up a bigger percentage. Ok, if you are running less (2-3 times a week) and swimming and cycling more then speedwork (which even HMP is really ) should take up more percentage wise but it will break you eventually.. physically and mentally. It sounds to me that you need to chill out and try and run for the enjoyment of it more.
Get the point on parkrun Ejc.. but i think on balance it is a hugely positive movement.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

twhat wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
Iíll be doing park run this weekend for the first time in yonks. I never attend regularly - at the moment all my runs in plan are half mara pace, one with VO2 max intervals. I like to do 10k or 5k pace occasionally.

I suppose I can find a park for intervals, maybe Iíll try the remote location for my son. He specifically asked for a treadmill, so itís a big part of the motive, but Iím also intrigued by managing pace specifically.

No Zwift runners yet?


I run a fair bit.. average 40 miles a week in 2018. Running 1/2 marathon pace is hard. Running 10k pace is really hard. Running 5k pace exceptionally hard. In a 40 mile week... i reckon less than 5 miles would be at HMP or quicker. I am in marathon training to be fair so MP (also pretty hard) takes up a bigger percentage. Ok, if you are running less (2-3 times a week) and swimming and cycling more then speedwork (which even HMP is really ) should take up more percentage wise but it will break you eventually.. physically and mentally. It sounds to me that you need to chill out and try and run for the enjoyment of it more.
Get the point on parkrun Ejc.. but i think on balance it is a hugely positive movement.


A potentially superior solution would be to approach running as we do the development of most of skills
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fruit thief




Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 2701

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a big fan of treadmill running. It gives great control of pace and environment. Less likely to get wet, muddy, bitten by a dog or have the local yoof lob fireworks at you.
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twhat




Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 1215
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds to me that triathlon needs to be changed to swim, bike , knit......


Very Happy
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fruit thief




Joined: 18 May 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Knitting looks really dangerous, have you seen the size of those needles? Plus strangulation risk, at least I'm sure that would be the results if I ever tried it with all that tangly string stuff
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 375
Location: Zug, Switzerland

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am seriously considering a treadmill. I am hoping that it will help me to train more and avoid injury.

Structured turbo training has resulted in a massive increase in ftp this winter, would structured training on treadmill also result in big gains on run?
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1544

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
I am seriously considering a treadmill. I am hoping that it will help me to train more and avoid injury.

Structured turbo training has resulted in a massive increase in ftp this winter, would structured training on treadmill also result in big gains on run?

Out of interest, on what basis do you think it will help you train more and avoid injury?

Personally, I find treadmill running more demanding, both mentally and physically. Going outside for a run is so straightforward and the time passes so much quicker.

I also don't see that you'd get the performance gains like on the turbo. Running on a treadmill is physiologically different (I feel as if you are rotating your feet to effectively stay still, rather than actually driving yourself forwards), and unlike cycling, when you run you are always moving be that treadmill or outside. There is no coasting when running, which I find is a big benefit of the turbo over outdoor riding, where indoor training forces you into a situation where you get no "freebies".
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gingerbongo




Joined: 21 Sep 2012
Posts: 1487
Location: Devon

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
mattsurf wrote:
I am seriously considering a treadmill. I am hoping that it will help me to train more and avoid injury.

Structured turbo training has resulted in a massive increase in ftp this winter, would structured training on treadmill also result in big gains on run?

Out of interest, on what basis do you think it will help you train more and avoid injury?

Personally, I find treadmill running more demanding, both mentally and physically. Going outside for a run is so straightforward and the time passes so much quicker.

I also don't see that you'd get the performance gains like on the turbo. Running on a treadmill is physiologically different (I feel as if you are rotating your feet to effectively stay still, rather than actually driving yourself forwards), and unlike cycling, when you run you are always moving be that treadmill or outside. There is no coasting when running, which I find is a big benefit of the turbo over outdoor riding, where indoor training forces you into a situation where you get no "freebies".


I'd add to that and say that your muscles, ligaments and tendons will also miss out on the opportunity to strengthen and prepare for the inevitable impact that your body suffers running on hard surfaces. Also, if you train off road, then you miss out on all those minor muscle gains that stregthen things like ankles and feet, making you more resilient as a result.
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twhat




Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 1215
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get an endless pool too.
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