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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:55 pm    Post subject: Another challenge for sport... Reply with quote

Whilst the reaction is inexcusable, this is quite a challenge for sport...

http://news.sky.com/story/fell-runner-lauren-jeska-jailed-for-attempted-murder-over-samples-row-10801631

what is the solution, I wonder?

Barring from competition, allowing to compete in a category of choice, creating a new category, creating multiple categories...
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Cat5 in the Hat




Joined: 14 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Another challenge for sport... Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Whilst the reaction is inexcusable, this is quite a challenge for sport...

http://news.sky.com/story/fell-runner-lauren-jeska-jailed-for-attempted-murder-over-samples-row-10801631

what is the solution, I wonder?

Barring from competition, allowing to compete in a category of choice, creating a new category, creating multiple categories...


It's certainly an interesting discussion. I am aware that some NGBs, BTF for example, have clear rules on how TG people can race, depending on what the athlete's paperwork says.

However I cannot see how this levels the playing field in the way that Male vs Female does. A TG female racing against natural females may well have huge advantages due to previous hormone levels & training. For fairness sake I believe a separate category is required.

Not the equitable PoV, and one that is probably unpopular, but one that I feel allows performance equality within sexes (not genders).
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Another challenge for sport... Reply with quote

Cat5 in the Hat wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Whilst the reaction is inexcusable, this is quite a challenge for sport...

http://news.sky.com/story/fell-runner-lauren-jeska-jailed-for-attempted-murder-over-samples-row-10801631

what is the solution, I wonder?

Barring from competition, allowing to compete in a category of choice, creating a new category, creating multiple categories...


It's certainly an interesting discussion. I am aware that some NGBs, BTF for example, have clear rules on how TG people can race, depending on what the athlete's paperwork says.

However I cannot see how this levels the playing field in the way that Male vs Female does. A TG female racing against natural females may well have huge advantages due to previous hormone levels & training. For fairness sake I believe a separate category is required.

Not the equitable PoV, and one that is probably unpopular, but one that I feel allows performance equality within sexes (not genders).


as i understand it, part of the issue was based on UKA's (or is it BA now???) inability to stick to a decision...

I am not sure why anyone would want equality of outcome in sport...equality of opportunity, certainly...and therefore, sadly I think a new category is required, but this in itself poses a multitude of problems...
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JaRok2300




Joined: 01 May 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see an obvious resolution to this because even if a separate category was created wouldn't the time since transition be a factor in terms of the on going effect of hormones etc.
I used to work with a male who transitioned to female and they continued to become more "feminine" over a very long period.
If you add in the debates about equal prize money between men and women irrespective of viewing figures, sponsorship etc. is time to go completely the other direction and have one category for everyone. What could be more equal than that? Chucks in grenade and steps back Wink
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JaRok2300 wrote:
I don't see an obvious resolution to this because even if a separate category was created wouldn't the time since transition be a factor in terms of the on going effect of hormones etc.
I used to work with a male who transitioned to female and they continued to become more "feminine" over a very long period.
If you add in the debates about equal prize money between men and women irrespective of viewing figures, sponsorship etc. is time to go completely the other direction and have one category for everyone. What could be more equal than that? Chucks in grenade and steps back Wink


i thought that too, but apparently equal opportunity is not enough, equal outcome is what is required...
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If people had to race according their genetic gender, then wouldn't this all be rather moot? In sport we are generally talking about physical attributes promoting success (I have no desire to get into a debate about the psychological aspects). Seems like the most equitable, if not most elegant solution.

Oh man, I just had a crazy idea - suggest on Slowtwitch that WTC should consider introducing TG Kona slots.
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Jgav




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:


Oh man, I just had a crazy idea - suggest on Slowtwitch that WTC should consider introducing TG Kona slots.


Just go and do it! I really want to see the result.
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Buzz_




Joined: 19 May 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An 'Open' category so anyone can compete, and then define your categories on clearly defined criteria, be it age, height, weight, TUE use or testosterone levels.

At some level you need to protect against an individual or an institution deciding they can create world champions, but I'm assuming the motivation for most people is not sporting glory.

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Cat5 in the Hat




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
If people had to race according their genetic gender, then wouldn't this all be rather moot?


Did you mean sex?
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cat5 in the Hat wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
If people had to race according their genetic gender, then wouldn't this all be rather moot?


Did you mean sex?


Probably, but even that is tricky, as those with androgen insenstivity would naturally want to compete in the opposite, and it would be appropriate for them to do so (in terms of impact of sex differences in capability)
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cat5 in the Hat wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
If people had to race according their genetic gender, then wouldn't this all be rather moot?


Did you mean sex?


I'm sorry, I can't use that word without sniggering like Homer Simpson Wink
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snowie




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

why don't they go with what the passport says?
if the state has accepted you why carn't everyone else?
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Chrace




Joined: 28 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

snowie wrote:
why don't they go with what the passport says?
if the state has accepted you why carn't everyone else?

Because sport is about physical attributes. Could it be considered doping? Smile What ended up happening to the south african girl(ish) runner at the olympics?

Jorgan wrote:
Oh man, I just had a crazy idea - suggest on Slowtwitch that WTC should consider introducing TG Kona slots.

Please post a link when done Jorgan. That'd be a hoot. I'll hazard a guess of guns mentioned 3.. no, 4 times in the first 3 pages.
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SwimsLikeAWalrus




Joined: 30 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think new category is the only way forwards.

You don't see many women becoming men and winning sports events do you?

Issues only seem to be men that have chosen to become women as their advantage is noticeable.

I do appreciate it is difficult for the athletes but equally Caster Semanya (the Olympics 'woman') lived her real life as a man and got married not long after. Surely that shows how he defines himself?

As an aside I was watching the ITU Abu Dhabi race and wondered about that New Zealander - Rebecca Spence???
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user134098




Joined: 29 Nov 2004
Posts: 10732

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrace wrote:
snowie wrote:
why don't they go with what the passport says?
if the state has accepted you why carn't everyone else?

Because sport is about physical attributes. Could it be considered doping? Smile What ended up happening to the south african girl(ish) runner at the olympics?


In order to compete, Caster Semenya was required to take drugs to suppress her naturally high levels of testosterone (one of her physical attributes). She successfully appealed this requirement to CAS, and was allowed to run without those drugs at Rio, where she got gold. Semenya is female and not transgender or non-binary.

The broader issue is about what's fair, and the IOC haven't come up with a strategy for transgender and non-binary athletes - you either qualify as a female or run as a man. Semenya qualifies as female according to the IOC rulebook, but her opponents take out their frustration on her.

At a local level, some events already support non-binary gender with separate prizes e.g. Jedburgh Ultra/HM/10k - but I don't know how widespread this is.
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